The missing conversation – Hereford Mosque plans

In my previous post on this subject I mentioned that the local newspaper had removed the comments on this story

http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/local/hereford/9898242.Shock_at_racist_abuse_sparked_by_Hereford_mosque_plan/

In the interests of free speech I have reproduced as much of the conversation on the HT bulletin board that I could rescue (approx 60%) and due to it’s size have pasted it in a comment below.  It is a large document and takes up over 35 A4 pages.

I’d advise you to read (but definitely NOT copy as that may infringe copyright  😉  ) quickly before I am forced to take this article down.

8 Comments on "The missing conversation – Hereford Mosque plans"

  1. Comments(79)
    jd1950 says… 
    7:47pm Mon 20 Aug 12
    Why not, there are lots of places where they could build one

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    RogerLFC says… 
    9:28pm Mon 20 Aug 12
    ‘County’ should be capitalised in the report I feel …. maybe subject to debate over whether it’s convention or fashionable to do so but my view ….

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    bobby47 says… 
    11:21am Tue 21 Aug 12
    I note this bit of news aint generating the same interest as other bits of news. Why is that?… Dont be worried simply because your view may be a negative one. No harm will come to you…. Say what you think… I will! This is wonderful news.

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    refuge77 says… 
    11:23am Tue 21 Aug 12
    Although I believe that everyone has a right to believe what they wish the arrival of a mosque in Herefordshire should be a matter of great concern to those who believe in either religious freedom or in a secular state. 

    Mosques, unlike churches and synagogues or Hindu temples or Sikh Gurudwawas are not just places of worship but are more like forward command posts on a battlefield and the targets in this battle are anyone who isn’t a Muslim. Islamic culture is in general intolerant towards others (look at Islamic states to see examples) of different cultures and beliefs and should be peacefully resisted where ever it tries to set up shop.

    I would urge people to peacefully protest the imposition of a mosque on the people of Hereford. It will bring no benefit to Hereford and will bring problems. First will come the mosque, then the oppression of women, then will come all the other negative things that Islamic culture brings with it. I have no issue with individual Muslims but only with Islamic culture.

    I’ve had to flee my own city in the UK because the growth of Islamic religious fascism there had made life intolerable for me and my family. I don’t want to see the same thing happen to Hereford and Herefordshire. 

    Those things that people cannot change such as race and gender should never be used against them in a discriminatory way. However, culture and religion can be changed and should therefore be open to criticism in a similar way that a political view can and should be challenged and criticised.

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    refuge77 says… 
    11:31am Tue 21 Aug 12
    bobby47 wrote:
    I note this bit of news aint generating the same interest as other bits of news. Why is that?… Dont be worried simply because your view may be a negative one. No harm will come to you…. Say what you think… I will! This is wonderful news.
    Bobby47, why is this wonderful news. Those of us who have seen first hand the dangers of Islamic culture (note NOT individual muslims) don’t see it as wonderful at all more seriously worrying.

    If someone wants to believe that a 7th century illiterate warlord is a prophet then that’s their right but they must expect challenges to this belief.

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    bobby47 says… 
    12:45pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Refuge 77, My friend, my post was intended as ‘satirical’ and to generate some discussion. I had no idea when I posted my short comment that you would emerge and expose yourself for what you are. A bigot.
    You use terms such as,’Mosques are forward command posts on a battlefield’. ‘ Oppression to woman and all the other negative things that come with Islamic culture’.
    You describe fleeing your home because of Muslim people. I hope, after reading my comment you will flee from Hereford and go somewhere that is more accepting of your views on the Muslim people of our Country.
    You Sir, are no different to Mr Amdjam Choudrey the idiot who causes harm to his people and helps germinate idiots like you. You are a fascist and you scare me.
    Have I got negative thoughts about Islam? Sure I have but I am aware that we can all develop these feelings if we watch the news to much or read the wrong newspaper. Like most sensible people I choose to see the very best in folk no matter what their religous beliefs.

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    refuge77 says… 
    1:14pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Bobby47, Thank you for pointing out that your previous post is satire. First of all, I am in no way a bigot as I believe that individuals have a right to believe what they wish. However as I stated before it is wrong to discriminate on the grounds of race and gender as these are things that one cannot change, but religions and ideologies are a different matter as you can change your culture or religion or ideology. I’m living proof of this as I used to be a socialist until I realised that it would never work so I changed my view.

    I have no issue with individual Muslims just Islamic culture as it has a tendency to become extremely authoritarian.

    You call me a fascist but remember that the Islamic Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj-Amin Al Hussaini was an active collaborator with the Nazi’s during world war two. Al Hussaini was the Islamic equal of Lord Haw Haw except that Lord Haw Haw didn’t get a really warm welcome from Adolf Hitler (and allegedly a tour of the Death Camps from Himmler). Be careful how you use the word fascist as not all fascists wear jackboots, other fascists come in different forms some secular and nationalist and some religious.

    I fled my home town not because of individual muslims but because of the aggressive encroachment of Islamic culture and the accompanying fear of violence felt by those of all races and religions who disagreed with the more negative aspects of Islamic culture.

    Maybe when you are feeling that you are having to leave Hereford because the schools refuse to serve pork or are taking part in Islamic religious indoctrination of our children or when RE teachers have their faces slashed for teaching about Christianity and other religions or you find your council fully owned by Islamic groups (such as has happened in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets) you may think differently and maybe you will see my point of view. But this is still a free country (just) and both our views can co-exist.

    My views on Islam are not taken from lunatic newspapers like the Daily Mail but from a considerable amount of personal study of the history and theology of Islam as well as my personal experiences.

    I’m very much different from Anjem Chowdhury and his Islam4UK group as as I can accept a plurality of political and religious views (when they are compatible with Western Civilisation) which the likes of Chowdhury and his mob do not.

    My description of mosques as forward command posts is not mine but is based on a quote from Erdogan the Prime minister of Turkey. The full quote is as follows: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers…”

    It’s not paranoia when there really is a problem.

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    leftofmoorfarm says… 
    1:15pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    At least someone is interested in developing the city. At last something might actually get built. Good luck with the Mosque.

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    refuge77 says… 
    1:20pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    leftofmoorfarm wrote:
    At least someone is interested in developing the city. At last something might actually get built. Good luck with the Mosque.
    There are better ways of developing the City than building a mosque. What about improving the transport infrastructure or a five year business rate holiday for City centre shops. I don’t believe a mosque will benefit the city at all.

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    lloyd1024 says… 
    1:36pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    This is so exciting! I have to say, as an atheist, I am looking forward to some new religious culture here in Hereford. This will certainly help me teach Religious Education in school. I love Hereford, but it’s all Christian. Having a genuine mosque here on our doorstep will certainly make this land a more exciting place to be. It will also show our children that Muslims are not as they are described in the media but they are just like everyone else.
    Where can I donate towards the build cost?

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    refuge77 says… 
    1:55pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    lloyd1024 wrote:
    This is so exciting! I have to say, as an atheist, I am looking forward to some new religious culture here in Hereford. This will certainly help me teach Religious Education in school. I love Hereford, but it’s all Christian. Having a genuine mosque here on our doorstep will certainly make this land a more exciting place to be. It will also show our children that Muslims are not as they are described in the media but they are just like everyone else.
    Where can I donate towards the build cost?
    LLoyd1024, Vladimir Lenin the Russian revolutionary described people with views such as yours as ‘useful idiots’. Not that you personally are an idiot, it’s just that the view that you have of Islam is naive and misguided. I would have no issue with a Hindu temple or a Sikh Gurudwawa in Hereford as both these religions are in the main peaceful in the UK and non aggressive something which Islam as an ideology is definitely not. 

    I also love Hereford but I love it because I don’t have to fear expressing a negative point of view on controversial subjects such as Islam something that many people who still live where I used to live cannot do. Freedom still exists here but in other parts of the country freedom is being lost to aggressive Islam.

    Why should Hereford as a whole suffer just to make your RE teaching job easier can’t you just use some books or something? As an atheist maybe you should do some study on the appalling conditions for atheists in the Islamic world. 

    I agree with you that not every muslim is a nutter or a terrorist but that doesn’t mean that Islam should be encouraged. We as a nation do not go out of our way to encourage Scientology as it’s in many peoples eyes a dangerous cult so why should we encourage the growth of Islam with it’s proven record of aggression?

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    lloyd1024 says… 
    2:46pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    @Refuge77
    Assalamu Alaykum
    Firstly – Not to criticise Vladimir, but he was a fairly cold hearted, emotionless person. So to be called an “idiot” by him, I must be doing something right.
    Secondly – I would like you to think for a moment that perhaps your view of Islam is misguided and naïve? It’s quite arrogant to assert that you are right and I am wrong. It’s unprofessional and it’s not a very good debating technique.
    Thirdly – I am sorry that you feel Islam is a danger to this country. What do you think Islam as a religion will do to this country? 
    Fourth point – Welcome to the United Kingdom, you have freedom of speech. I am sorry other countries are not as fortunate as the United Kingdom. I’m not sure what part of the UK you’re from where Freedom of Speech doesn’t exist.
    Fifth point – I’m not sure you read my comment correctly, nor understand what a mosque is? Why would Hereford suffer from a mosque? I don’t want a mosque to make my RE teaching job easier.
    Sixth point – I certainly hope you’re not a teacher, “just use some books or something” is a bit of a joke. You would fail an OFSTED inspection.
    Seventh point – There are appalling conditions of life across the world, not just the Islamic world.
    Eighth point – I’m glad you recognise that not every person is a terrorist. I don’t see why you’re ok with other religions who also have a track record for terrorism, aggression, violence, and intolerance of others. You cant pick Islam and say they are the bad religion. 
    Ninth point – I’d like to know your definition of cult. It’s very arrogant again to assert that Scientology is a cult, not a religion. What aspects does it assert that Islam does not? Why is Islam a religion and not a cult?
    I would suggest you talk to your local Imam about your concerns with Islam. I’m sure they will agree with you on many of your points. Islam is not a dangerous religion. The people in power are the danger. The people in power are the ones who use Islam as a guise for their own agendas. Religions are not inherently evil nor are they inherently good.
    I’ve just read your other comments and realised my reply was a waste of time as you are obviously making some kind of joke.

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    Amzy93 says… 
    3:35pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    I hope that Hereford does have a mosque built. And I look forward to the day that there are enough Hindus, Sikhs and Jews in Hereford to warrant building a temple or synagogue or gurdwara.
    I would just like to ask ‘Refuge77’ where they think Muslims have been worshipping this whole time, as there are clearly enough of them here already to actually need a mosque.
    I would also point out Islam is a religion that promotes peace. One of their Five Pillars of Faith is ‘Zakah’ meaning charity. It is a religion that wants to help the community. Instead of all this negativity toward Muslims, we should be helping them to settle better into our county and showing them that we are not people who believe everything the media tell us about them, we are willing to give them the chance to enjoy this city just like we do. If that means giving them a place of worship, then so be it. The Quakers have a place, the Mormons have a chapel, and there are a number of Catholic churches and churches of England here so we should increase our diversity outside of Christianity. 
    Something for you to think about…“Like a bee gathering honey from different flowers, the wise man accepts the essence of different scriptures and sees only the good in all religions” Srimad Bhagavatam 11.3.

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    silentbull says… 
    4:18pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Personally i would love to see a world without Religion 
    To me Religion is the root of most wars 
    ‘YES’ Im an atheist and Im proud to be one.
    I believe in peace, caring & looking out for other people,
    i have beliefs that most Religions claim to have ‘yet’ i don’t need a made up ego trip to fulfill my life. 
    I believe Without Religion the world would be a much better and peaceful place 
    Im against the mosque being built here and even any church preaching there so called religion.

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    refuge77 says… 
    4:32pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Amzy93 I’ll take up both your’s and lloyd1024’s points in more detail later but I must first take issue with your statement that Islam is a religion of peace. 

    Yes there are peaceful verses in the Qu’ran but unfortunately these verses are countermanded by the later more violent Qu’ranic verses which because of the Islamic doctrine of abrogation which means that later more violent and intolerant statements of the prophet take precedence over the earlier more peaceful ones.

    Yes there are good and bad in all religions but it is the pinnacle of common sense for western secularists to be nervous about Islam bearing in mind the sheer amount of violence committed in the name of Islam. My attitude to Islam is similar to how Jews in Tsarist Russia were rightly nervous of the Russian Orthodox Church because of its encouragement of pogroms and oppression. I think that there is a case for treating Islam differently to other faiths as neither Quakers nor Mormons nor Catholics wish to replace democracy with a religious dictatorship. Support democracy, dump the Islamic triumphalism and the aggression and we will all get along better.

    There is a possibility for a future Reformed Islam which is something that I and many others would like to see, but first Islam needs to lose the doctrine of Mohammed being the perfect man. He was not perfect and neither were other religio-political leaders such as Moses, King David, St Paul, or Thomas Becket etc etc.

    I’ve no problem with people worshipping in a hired room or rooms but the building of a mosque is a step too far and raises grave concerns with me as I have lived in Muslim dominated areas and am familiar with Islamic theology.

    Before I go, if as Islam says there is to be no compulsion in religion why is it that in Islamic countries a person cannot change their religion from Islam to something else often on pain of death? It would be helpful to have an answer without Taqiyya please.

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    Powell80 says… 
    5:11pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Refuge77,

    You’re confusing Islam with political Islam.

    Hereford’s Muslims have been meeting quietly for years, have you got any proof that they’re trying to create an Islamic state here in the UK? Not all Muslims have the same beliefs, like not all Christians agree with each.

    Well done for living in a Muslim area by the way (Milton Keynes?) but that doesn’t make you an expert on the situation in Hereford. Because that’s what we’re talking about, the Muslims in Hereford not in Iran.

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    William Rudd says… 
    5:12pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Well said Silentbull my thoughts exactly
    I was reading a story yesterday of an 11 yr old Muslim girl from Pakistan with downs syndrome who has been arrested for blasphemy and will when convicted will be given the death penalty.So much for being peaceful and tolerent faith.

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    Lukio says… 
    6:42pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    It’s interesting to see the healthy debate about a sensitive subject such as this and commendably everyone is making valid and well-thought out contributions.

    I’m pretty much agnostic (talk about indecisive eh?!) and I find it hard to swallow any kind of religious methodology when it’s set against science and technology. However, I also believe that people have a right to follow and worship what ever makes them happy. If they’re Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist then good luck to them. I don’t see a huge issue with building a Mosque. Quite rightly spelled out above this is Hereford, not Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan. 

    All religions have extreme followers who commit acts of atrocity in the name of that religion and every religion will have its nutter factions. Think Opus Dei, Westboro Baptist Church, UDA etc. 

    I think most people’s concerns will focus around the fact that this could attract more Muslims to the area. I doubt this would happen as there are no jobs, poor infrastructure and nothing really to come here for in large numbers.

    This is an interesting and topical debate – keep it up. I’d like to see what comes of this.

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    refuge77 says… 
    7:28pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Powell80 wrote:
    Refuge77,

    You’re confusing Islam with political Islam.

    Hereford’s Muslims have been meeting quietly for years, have you got any proof that they’re trying to create an Islamic state here in the UK? Not all Muslims have the same beliefs, like not all Christians agree with each.

    Well done for living in a Muslim area by the way (Milton Keynes?) but that doesn’t make you an expert on the situation in Hereford. Because that’s what we’re talking about, the Muslims in Hereford not in Iran.
    Powell80. Unfortunately there is an overlap between Islam as a way of life and Islamism/political Islam which is why you have to separate those individuals who just happen to be Muslim and Islam as an ideology. It’s wrong to hate individuals who happen to be Muslim but quite correct to attack Islam as the authoritarian ideology which it is. 

    Having lived for many years in a major city (NOT MK) I’ve seen how capitulation to the ideology of Islam had made this particular place very unpleasant for those both Muslim and non muslim who disagree with and speak out against Islamic ideology. Sometimes the first victims of Islamic violence and coercion are those muslims who express hetrodox views on matters of faith. 

    I’m not an expert on Hereford but I’m certainly more informed than many non muslims about what is in the Qu’ran, the personality of Mohammed, and the Islamic wars of conquest in the Arabian penninsular.

    I agree that not all muslims have the same beliefs or degree of belief but the main foundations of Islam and it’s attitude to women, minorities and those of different beliefs means that to a large extent Islam is incompatible (at present) with western secular/judaeo-chris
    tian values. Maybe in the future this will be different but it is for Islam to change to match the host nation not the other way round. 

    My main concern is that Hereford doesn’t sleepwalk into a situation where Islam is given political influence as has happened in places like the London Borough of Tower Hamlets which is now controlled by a group called Jaaat e Islami which is a most distasteful extremist group.

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    Amzy93 says… 
    8:09pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Refuge77: I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say. You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong. I study Religious Studies and am quite knowledgable about Islam, more so than many also. And that is what I am basing my opinions on. Fact and experiences with Muslims that I know. 
    Building a mosque in Hereford is a step forward for this county. Having lived here my whole life I can quite safely say that Muslims are not trying to control any part of Hereford, they just want the right to have a place to worship. I think you mentioned religious freedom earlier? That is exactly what they won’t be having by people denying them this right. 
    As for their beliefs not being compatible with our western beliefs I would say that that is true for man other religions. Catholics don’t agree with contraception or pre-marital sex, Mormons believe they can cure homosexuals and have only recently accepted ethnic minorities in their churches. There is space for them all to modernise but that is not a decision for non believers to make.

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    bobby47 says… 
    8:19pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Refuge 77, My warmest regards to you. You are clearly, without any doubt, a bright, clever and well read individual who has certainly become extremely knowledgeable about this subject. However,I do wonder how much knowledge you have actually digested which is for the benefit of your fellow man. I suspect you have fallen into the trap that many academics encounter when they begin to use their ability and knowledge to massage their own ego’s. I suspect this is what you are doing now. I think you feel that this is your moment to sit in the spotlight and blast everyone away with your undoubted literary skills. You can probably quote me ‘this that and the other’ about militant and political Islam but do you really know how a none political or none militant Muslim feels when you describe their Prophet as a 7th Century illiterate warlord.
    For my part, I’m no academic but I do know my fellow man and you my friend have become disconnected with your heartless talk about your fellow Brits who just happen to be Muslims. Take care my friend.

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    Powell80 says… 
    8:33pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    refuge77 wrote:
    Powell80 wrote:
    Refuge77,

    You’re confusing Islam with political Islam.

    Hereford’s Muslims have been meeting quietly for years, have you got any proof that they’re trying to create an Islamic state here in the UK? Not all Muslims have the same beliefs, like not all Christians agree with each.

    Well done for living in a Muslim area by the way (Milton Keynes?) but that doesn’t make you an expert on the situation in Hereford. Because that’s what we’re talking about, the Muslims in Hereford not in Iran.
    Powell80. Unfortunately there is an overlap between Islam as a way of life and Islamism/political Islam which is why you have to separate those individuals who just happen to be Muslim and Islam as an ideology. It’s wrong to hate individuals who happen to be Muslim but quite correct to attack Islam as the authoritarian ideology which it is. 

    Having lived for many years in a major city (NOT MK) I’ve seen how capitulation to the ideology of Islam had made this particular place very unpleasant for those both Muslim and non muslim who disagree with and speak out against Islamic ideology. Sometimes the first victims of Islamic violence and coercion are those muslims who express hetrodox views on matters of faith. 

    I’m not an expert on Hereford but I’m certainly more informed than many non muslims about what is in the Qu’ran, the personality of Mohammed, and the Islamic wars of conquest in the Arabian penninsular.

    I agree that not all muslims have the same beliefs or degree of belief but the main foundations of Islam and it’s attitude to women, minorities and those of different beliefs means that to a large extent Islam is incompatible (at present) with western secular/judaeo-chris

    tian values. Maybe in the future this will be different but it is for Islam to change to match the host nation not the other way round. 

    My main concern is that Hereford doesn’t sleepwalk into a situation where Islam is given political influence as has happened in places like the London Borough of Tower Hamlets which is now controlled by a group called Jaaat e Islami which is a most distasteful extremist group.
    Refuge77,

    It seems to me you’re attacking Islam (the religion) because the far-right political activists of Islamism (the political movement) associate with it i.e. opposing the building of a church because the Tories believe in Christianity and you don’t like the Tories.

    I agree with what you’re saying about the authoritarian nature of some aspects of Islam and the qur’an but the bible says similar things. You can’t have double standards. 

    Again though, if you don’t know the nature and beliefs of Hereford’s Muslim ‘community’ then you’re wrong to lump them in with all the extremist elements you keep referring to. It’s scaremongering. 

    You clearly know a bit about Islam and have an interest in researching it so why not try and speak to the Muslims in Hereford and find out more. A quick search on the internet says that the imam is (or was) Zach Pandor. Call him up or something.

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    refuge77 says… 
    8:52pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Amzy93 wrote:
    Refuge77: I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say. You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong. I study Religious Studies and am quite knowledgable about Islam, more so than many also. And that is what I am basing my opinions on. Fact and experiences with Muslims that I know. 
    Building a mosque in Hereford is a step forward for this county. Having lived here my whole life I can quite safely say that Muslims are not trying to control any part of Hereford, they just want the right to have a place to worship. I think you mentioned religious freedom earlier? That is exactly what they won’t be having by people denying them this right. 
    As for their beliefs not being compatible with our western beliefs I would say that that is true for man other religions. Catholics don’t agree with contraception or pre-marital sex, Mormons believe they can cure homosexuals and have only recently accepted ethnic minorities in their churches. There is space for them all to modernise but that is not a decision for non believers to make.
    Amzy93 wrote: “I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say”

    As is your right to disagree. As I said before this is still a free country.

    Amzy93 wrote:”You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong”

    My experience is with Muslim organisations that say they are moderate but turn out to be anything but moderate. For example, The East London Mosque in London’s Whitechapel says they are for community cohesion and speaks such words to non muslims but then go on to host speakers who promote hate against members of other religions, secularists, LGBT people and many more. If you want links on this subject I can give them to you but I would advise you to have a look at the Centre-Left blog Harry’s Place which has covered the situation at East London Mosque and its associated organisations and individuals in very great detail. 

    You may not know but the East End of London for example was once a reasonably tolerant (although occasionally violent and edgy) place with people from all over the world pitching up and having to tolerate a neighbour who might be gay or catholic or jewish or hindu or with some other difference because such toleration was essential to survival in a sometimes hostile host nation. Since the Islamists took over the local council there it has become a threatening Islamic monoculture with the gay pubs being physically attacked by Jihadists, hate preachers operating out of council supported community centres, RE teachers beaten up, vicars attacked and even a memorial to victims of the last V2 bombing harrassed. I’ve lived in Islamic areas and I definitely wouldn’t want to bring up a child (especially a daughter) in such areas. 

    Although I respect your knowledge as a Religious Studies student I don’t see a mosque as an asset to Hereford. You say that you base your opinions on fact and encounters with Muslims you know, well what do you know so do I it’s just that we have come to different conclusions. The difference between you and I is that I do not willfully blind myself to the problems with Islam. 

    I agree with you that there are conflicts between secularism and all religions but the difference is how the religions deal with these conflicts. The correct approach is to accept that ‘the law of the land is the law of the catholic/mormon/jew or whatever’. Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices.

    Religious freedom and freedom of worship is important but it can only go so far and a society/nation has a right to object to religious practices that they find objectionable. We don’t allow human sacrifice in the UK for example. Many people – myself among them – find the third class status of women in Islam objectionable and something that needs fighting. I disagree with your point that reform of religions is only a matter for believers as you have to consider what would happen if a religion sprung up which refused to remove or reform things that the majority believed were wrong. 

    You say that you have lived all your life in Hereford in that case you probably have not seen the negative side of Islam that I have. 

    Like it or not Islam as practised both here and elsewhere is not a fluffy tolerant faith but an aggressive and sometimes murderously intolerant one.

    The interesting thing about this conversation is that both you and I have had experiences of Islam but have come to different points of view on it.

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    refuge77 says… 
    8:54pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Lukio wrote:
    It’s interesting to see the healthy debate about a sensitive subject such as this and commendably everyone is making valid and well-thought out contributions.

    I’m pretty much agnostic (talk about indecisive eh?!) and I find it hard to swallow any kind of religious methodology when it’s set against science and technology. However, I also believe that people have a right to follow and worship what ever makes them happy. If they’re Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist then good luck to them. I don’t see a huge issue with building a Mosque. Quite rightly spelled out above this is Hereford, not Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan. 

    All religions have extreme followers who commit acts of atrocity in the name of that religion and every religion will have its nutter factions. Think Opus Dei, Westboro Baptist Church, UDA etc. 

    I think most people’s concerns will focus around the fact that this could attract more Muslims to the area. I doubt this would happen as there are no jobs, poor infrastructure and nothing really to come here for in large numbers.

    This is an interesting and topical debate – keep it up. I’d like to see what comes of this.
    Lukio wrote:
    “It’s interesting to see the healthy debate about a sensitive subject such as this and commendably everyone is making valid and well-thought out contributions. ”

    I agree. It’s vital that these issues are debated openly rather than being pushed under the carpet or to have those of differing views dismissed as ‘racist’ or ‘fascist’ or ‘islamophobic’ or whatever this weeks favourite snarl word is.

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    refuge77 says… 
    8:56pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    William Rudd wrote:
    Well said Silentbull my thoughts exactly
    I was reading a story yesterday of an 11 yr old Muslim girl from Pakistan with downs syndrome who has been arrested for blasphemy and will when convicted will be given the death penalty.So much for being peaceful and tolerent faith.
    That is an appalling case but it’s not the only one of it’s type, remember the Governor of Punjab province was assassinated last January for speaking out against the misuse of Pakistan’s blasphemy laws.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Amzy93 says… 
    9:08pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    So if I am blind to the violent etc side of Islam, does that mean you are blind to the tolerant side?
    Do you not think that Muslims should be given the right to worship in their proper place of worship, not a small room?
    I doubt they’re planning on building a huge traditional eastern style mosque, if it is the case of just another building I don’t understand what the problem is. They have not been violent and hateful so far so why would they be now? By building a mosque they are not promoting their faith, just asking for the same chance that other faiths have.
    I understand that they are violent and points you’ve made are valid but I just don’t see what difference building a mosque will make?
    I too find it interesting that we have both come to differing opinions! I just stand for equality and the right to worship is part of that. I’m sorry that you have had a bad experience, but surely you recognise that not all Muslims are bad? And if you haven’t been driven out of Hereford by them by now, then that must mean they’re not the same as the people who made you leave your previous area?

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    9:12pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    bobby47 wrote:
    Refuge 77, My warmest regards to you. You are clearly, without any doubt, a bright, clever and well read individual who has certainly become extremely knowledgeable about this subject. However,I do wonder how much knowledge you have actually digested which is for the benefit of your fellow man. I suspect you have fallen into the trap that many academics encounter when they begin to use their ability and knowledge to massage their own ego’s. I suspect this is what you are doing now. I think you feel that this is your moment to sit in the spotlight and blast everyone away with your undoubted literary skills. You can probably quote me ‘this that and the other’ about militant and political Islam but do you really know how a none political or none militant Muslim feels when you describe their Prophet as a 7th Century illiterate warlord.
    For my part, I’m no academic but I do know my fellow man and you my friend have become disconnected with your heartless talk about your fellow Brits who just happen to be Muslims. Take care my friend.
    bobby47 But Mohammed WAS an illiterate 7th Century warlord who took a 9 year old wife and who ordered the deaths of those who disagreed with him even when those who disagreed with him did so peacefully in the context of debate, these are established facts. If people take offence at these facts then the problem lies not with me for bringing these matters to attention but with those who take offence. Arguments for the sake of heaven are vital in a free society.

    Oh and in the interests of balance. Moses was a hare lipped war leader who presided over a terrible ancient civil war (see the episode of the Golden Calf in the Old Testament) and that the Roman Emperor Constantine killed loads in the name of Jesus. 

    I would dearly love to see the growth of a non political, non aggressive Islam but until it arrives Islam as a philosophy is going to be viewed with suspicion especially by those of us who have seen and experienced the extremes. 

    I do not have a knee jerk irrational dislike of Islam I have come to my conclusions that there are negative issues with Islam as a culture through study and debate.

    What people believe in their heads should, nay must be sacrosanct, but how these beliefs manifest themselves and any problems caused by said beliefs is a matter for debate and sometimes criticism.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Powell80 says… 
    9:17pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    refuge77 wrote:
    Amzy93 wrote:
    Refuge77: I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say. You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong. I study Religious Studies and am quite knowledgable about Islam, more so than many also. And that is what I am basing my opinions on. Fact and experiences with Muslims that I know. 
    Building a mosque in Hereford is a step forward for this county. Having lived here my whole life I can quite safely say that Muslims are not trying to control any part of Hereford, they just want the right to have a place to worship. I think you mentioned religious freedom earlier? That is exactly what they won’t be having by people denying them this right. 
    As for their beliefs not being compatible with our western beliefs I would say that that is true for man other religions. Catholics don’t agree with contraception or pre-marital sex, Mormons believe they can cure homosexuals and have only recently accepted ethnic minorities in their churches. There is space for them all to modernise but that is not a decision for non believers to make.
    Amzy93 wrote: "I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say”

    As is your right to disagree. As I said before this is still a free country.

    Amzy93 wrote:”You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong”

    My experience is with Muslim organisations that say they are moderate but turn out to be anything but moderate. For example, The East London Mosque in London’s Whitechapel says they are for community cohesion and speaks such words to non muslims but then go on to host speakers who promote hate against members of other religions, secularists, LGBT people and many more. If you want links on this subject I can give them to you but I would advise you to have a look at the Centre-Left blog Harry’s Place which has covered the situation at East London Mosque and its associated organisations and individuals in very great detail. 

    You may not know but the East End of London for example was once a reasonably tolerant (although occasionally violent and edgy) place with people from all over the world pitching up and having to tolerate a neighbour who might be gay or catholic or jewish or hindu or with some other difference because such toleration was essential to survival in a sometimes hostile host nation. Since the Islamists took over the local council there it has become a threatening Islamic monoculture with the gay pubs being physically attacked by Jihadists, hate preachers operating out of council supported community centres, RE teachers beaten up, vicars attacked and even a memorial to victims of the last V2 bombing harrassed. I’ve lived in Islamic areas and I definitely wouldn’t want to bring up a child (especially a daughter) in such areas. 

    Although I respect your knowledge as a Religious Studies student I don’t see a mosque as an asset to Hereford. You say that you base your opinions on fact and encounters with Muslims you know, well what do you know so do I it’s just that we have come to different conclusions. The difference between you and I is that I do not willfully blind myself to the problems with Islam. 

    I agree with you that there are conflicts between secularism and all religions but the difference is how the religions deal with these conflicts. The correct approach is to accept that ‘the law of the land is the law of the catholic/mormon/jew or whatever’. Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices. 

    Religious freedom and freedom of worship is important but it can only go so far and a society/nation has a right to object to religious practices that they find objectionable. We don’t allow human sacrifice in the UK for example. Many people – myself among them – find the third class status of women in Islam objectionable and something that needs fighting. I disagree with your point that reform of religions is only a matter for believers as you have to consider what would happen if a religion sprung up which refused to remove or reform things that the majority believed were wrong. 

    You say that you have lived all your life in Hereford in that case you probably have not seen the negative side of Islam that I have. 

    Like it or not Islam as practised both here and elsewhere is not a fluffy tolerant faith but an aggressive and sometimes murderously intolerant one.

    The interesting thing about this conversation is that both you and I have had experiences of Islam but have come to different points of view on it.
    The Islamists you talk about here, Refuge77, are disgusting. And I know this sort of thing goes on: “Since the Islamists took over the local council there it has become a threatening Islamic monoculture with the gay pubs being physically attacked by Jihadists, hate preachers operating out of council supported community centres, RE teachers beaten up, vicars attacked and even a memorial to victims of the last V2 bombing harrassed. I’ve lived in Islamic areas and I definitely wouldn’t want to bring up a child (especially a daughter) in such areas.”

    They should be challenged. But those are FAR-RIGHT Islamists are they not? In Whitechapel. 

    You also say: “Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices.” But that’s how a democracy works. We adapt laws to accommodate different groups in society. Gays and lesbians can now be legally recognised as partners and will soon be able to marry (something that many Christians oppose incidentally).

    The supreme governor of the Anglican church, however, is the chief of state of the UK government: the queen. How’s that for allowing the law of religion to be dictated by the law of the land?!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    9:47pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    bobby47 wrote:
    Refuge 77, My warmest regards to you. You are clearly, without any doubt, a bright, clever and well read individual who has certainly become extremely knowledgeable about this subject. However,I do wonder how much knowledge you have actually digested which is for the benefit of your fellow man. I suspect you have fallen into the trap that many academics encounter when they begin to use their ability and knowledge to massage their own ego’s. I suspect this is what you are doing now. I think you feel that this is your moment to sit in the spotlight and blast everyone away with your undoubted literary skills. You can probably quote me ‘this that and the other’ about militant and political Islam but do you really know how a none political or none militant Muslim feels when you describe their Prophet as a 7th Century illiterate warlord.
    For my part, I’m no academic but I do know my fellow man and you my friend have become disconnected with your heartless talk about your fellow Brits who just happen to be Muslims. Take care my friend.
    To Powell80 It seems to me you’re attacking Islam (the religion) because the far-right political activists of Islamism (the political movement) associate with it i.e. opposing the building of a church because the Tories believe in Christianity and you don’t like the Tories.

    I’ve been very careful in this debate to separate the individual from the culture/belief. Unfortunately for Muslims the dividing line between Islam the faith and Islamism the authoritarian political movement is not a straight division and there is much osmosis between Islam and Islamism which makes it more difficult to separate them out.

    Powell80 said “I agree with what you’re saying about the authoritarian nature of some aspects of Islam and the qur’an but the bible says similar things. You can’t have double standards.” 

    Aha! the old ‘but they are both old religious books’ argument Yes both books contain elements of violence but the main difference is nowadays many Jews and Christians either distance themselves or re interpret these passages to fit in with todays world. 

    Unfortunately the Islamic doctrine of Mohammed being the perfect man and the Qu’ran as being gods unvarnished truth precludes new, better and more peaceful interpretations. Theologically Islam is where Christianity was prior to the Reformation and German Judaism prior to the Haskalah (19th Century Jewish enlightenment) If christians can accept textual examination that dates the Gospels as later than previously believed and still be christians or if Jews can accept that the Torah was not given from heaven and still be Jews why cannot Muslims look again at thorny issues such as the doctrine of abrogation, the perfect man issue and else and still be muslims?

    Powell80 said:
    “Again though, if you don’t know the nature and beliefs of Hereford’s Muslim ‘community’ then you’re wrong to lump them in with all the extremist elements you keep referring to. It’s scaremongering.”

    I understand that the majority of Hereford’s muslims are quietist but you cannot deny that my experience of Islam colours my views. If all you ever saw of Christians was violent exorcisms (I’ve seen an exorcism and it’s not pretty and IMO is abuse of the person allegedly ‘possessed’) then that would colour your attitudes to Christianity. Seeing women forced by men to spend their lives in mobile canvas prisons or gay friends beaten up by gangs of muslims or having Muslim groups corrupting local politics or fomenting discord as I have has coloured my view on Islam and no amount of Dawa, Kitman or Taqiyya will counterbalance my own personal experience or studies.

    As regards your comment on scaremongering, sometimes a bit of scaremongering is necessary, after all Winston Churchill was accused of scaremongering in the 1930’s when he warned of the growth of nationalist fascism in Europe. 

    Powell80 said
    You clearly know a bit about Islam and have an interest in researching it so why not try and speak to the Muslims in Hereford and find out more. A quick search on the internet says that the imam is (or was) Zach Pandor. Call him up or something.”

    Mr Pandor is probably a good individual (like many Muslims) and the Muslims of Hereford are probably quietist but please respect the opinions of others for whom the experience of Islam in the UK has not been very edifying.

    I’d love to see a peaceful Islam that is able to co-exist with others but sadly I see very little of peaceful Islam in the world at the moment.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    10:12pm Tue 21 Aug 12
    Powell80 wrote:
    refuge77 wrote:
    Amzy93 wrote:
    Refuge77: I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say. You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong. I study Religious Studies and am quite knowledgable about Islam, more so than many also. And that is what I am basing my opinions on. Fact and experiences with Muslims that I know. 
    Building a mosque in Hereford is a step forward for this county. Having lived here my whole life I can quite safely say that Muslims are not trying to control any part of Hereford, they just want the right to have a place to worship. I think you mentioned religious freedom earlier? That is exactly what they won’t be having by people denying them this right. 
    As for their beliefs not being compatible with our western beliefs I would say that that is true for man other religions. Catholics don’t agree with contraception or pre-marital sex, Mormons believe they can cure homosexuals and have only recently accepted ethnic minorities in their churches. There is space for them all to modernise but that is not a decision for non believers to make.
    Amzy93 wrote: "I can’t be bothered to do a long paragraph reply because I completely disagree with almost everything you say”

    As is your right to disagree. As I said before this is still a free country.

    Amzy93 wrote:”You’re comparing the building of a mosque in Hereford to some experience you had in another city with extremist Muslims and that is wrong”

    My experience is with Muslim organisations that say they are moderate but turn out to be anything but moderate. For example, The East London Mosque in London’s Whitechapel says they are for community cohesion and speaks such words to non muslims but then go on to host speakers who promote hate against members of other religions, secularists, LGBT people and many more. If you want links on this subject I can give them to you but I would advise you to have a look at the Centre-Left blog Harry’s Place which has covered the situation at East London Mosque and its associated organisations and individuals in very great detail. 

    You may not know but the East End of London for example was once a reasonably tolerant (although occasionally violent and edgy) place with people from all over the world pitching up and having to tolerate a neighbour who might be gay or catholic or jewish or hindu or with some other difference because such toleration was essential to survival in a sometimes hostile host nation. Since the Islamists took over the local council there it has become a threatening Islamic monoculture with the gay pubs being physically attacked by Jihadists, hate preachers operating out of council supported community centres, RE teachers beaten up, vicars attacked and even a memorial to victims of the last V2 bombing harrassed. I’ve lived in Islamic areas and I definitely wouldn’t want to bring up a child (especially a daughter) in such areas. 

    Although I respect your knowledge as a Religious Studies student I don’t see a mosque as an asset to Hereford. You say that you base your opinions on fact and encounters with Muslims you know, well what do you know so do I it’s just that we have come to different conclusions. The difference between you and I is that I do not willfully blind myself to the problems with Islam. 

    I agree with you that there are conflicts between secularism and all religions but the difference is how the religions deal with these conflicts. The correct approach is to accept that ‘the law of the land is the law of the catholic/mormon/jew or whatever’. Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices. 

    Religious freedom and freedom of worship is important but it can only go so far and a society/nation has a right to object to religious practices that they find objectionable. We don’t allow human sacrifice in the UK for example. Many people – myself among them – find the third class status of women in Islam objectionable and something that needs fighting. I disagree with your point that reform of religions is only a matter for believers as you have to consider what would happen if a religion sprung up which refused to remove or reform things that the majority believed were wrong. 

    You say that you have lived all your life in Hereford in that case you probably have not seen the negative side of Islam that I have. 

    Like it or not Islam as practised both here and elsewhere is not a fluffy tolerant faith but an aggressive and sometimes murderously intolerant one.

    The interesting thing about this conversation is that both you and I have had experiences of Islam but have come to different points of view on it.
    The Islamists you talk about here, Refuge77, are disgusting. And I know this sort of thing goes on: “Since the Islamists took over the local council there it has become a threatening Islamic monoculture with the gay pubs being physically attacked by Jihadists, hate preachers operating out of council supported community centres, RE teachers beaten up, vicars attacked and even a memorial to victims of the last V2 bombing harrassed. I’ve lived in Islamic areas and I definitely wouldn’t want to bring up a child (especially a daughter) in such areas.”

    They should be challenged. But those are FAR-RIGHT Islamists are they not? In Whitechapel. 

    You also say: “Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices.” But that’s how a democracy works. We adapt laws to accommodate different groups in society. Gays and lesbians can now be legally recognised as partners and will soon be able to marry (something that many Christians oppose incidentally).

    The supreme governor of the Anglican church, however, is the chief of state of the UK government: the queen. How’s that for allowing the law of religion to be dictated by the law of the land?!
    Powell80 said:”The Islamists you talk about here, Refuge77, are disgusting. And I know this sort of thing goes on: 

    I agree it is disgusting but why do Muslims as a community tolerate it? Why not speak out? Why tolerate a situation where 40% of British Muslims in a 2006 ICM polling survey want Sharia law imposed and 20% sympathise with the 7/7 bombers? 

    Powell80
    “They should be challenged. But those are FAR-RIGHT Islamists are they not?” 

    I know that these are the far right of Islam and I appreciate you stating that they are far right (as far too many of the political Left cannot see Islamism as being Far Right) but there seem to be an awful lot of Islamic far rightists far more so than the number of white British people who support the BNP (who I vehemently disagree with for various personal reasons).

    You also say: “Sadly the attitude of some Muslim organisations and individuals is to demand that the law is changed to accomodate Islamic beliefs and practices.” But that’s how a democracy works. 

    I’m afraid that is not how a democracy works. Majority rules but with safeguards. Of course in a democracy you must prevent a ‘tyranny of the majority’ coming up but that is totally different from a minority calling the shots and violently chucking the toys out of the pram when rebuffed or challenged for example I would like to draw your attention to Lord Ahmed who threatened to have 10000 muslims lay siege to parliament if the Dutch anti jihadist Geert Wilders was allowed to visit Parliament. Now Wilders is not everyone’s cup of tea but for a parliamentarian to threaten street violence like that does Islam no favours and entrenches the attitude among non muslims that Islam exists in a state of permanent outrage and violence. 

    Powell80 said:
    We adapt laws to accommodate different groups in society. Gays and lesbians can now be legally recognised as partners and will soon be able to marry (something that many Christians oppose incidentally). ”

    There is a difference in for example allowing gays and lesbians to have civil partnerships which is righting a former wrong and accepting that the gender discriminatory practices that of Sharia Law in the UK have legal legitimacy. Incidentally I oppose the change in the marriage law not because of bigotry but because with Civil partnerships there is already de facto equality and it’s not worth the huge political row that changing the law will entail especially when we are in the middle of an economic crisis.
    In other words it’s a row that is not needed. 

    Powell80
    “The supreme governor of the Anglican church, however, is the chief of state of the UK government: the queen. How’s that for allowing the law of religion to be dictated by the law of the land?!”

    That as you may well know is a quirk of history in the same way that Hinduism is the state religion of India or Shinto was the state religion of Japan.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    chill1986 says… 
    10:03am Wed 22 Aug 12
    I have mixed feelings on this. If there is a large enough muslim society in Hereford already then it would seem reasonable to build the mosque, but at the moment they go unnoticed causing no trouble whatsoever. If a mosque is built it will create a focal point, not just for the Muslim community to congregate, but also for hatred towards them. They will be under a magnifying glass. 

    I was born and raised in Hereford, but have moved in the last year to Reading a place where I live less from a mile from a mosque. I hate it. It is an eyesore, the area surrounding it is the roughest in Reading, as are the people. Crime is rife,the first language is not English and I have to go into town for non halal meat.

    Whilst I have no ill feelings towards Muslims, I oppose the building of a mosque. Hereford is the last remaining English county, keep it that way. If the shoe was on the other foot, would a Christian community be allowed to walk around in a Muslim society without covering up or conforming to other practices? I think not. A man was beaten to death in Dubai last year for swearing.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    backspace76 says… 
    10:52am Wed 22 Aug 12
    Definitely not a good idea, if they want to worship do it in there own bloody house. why should they have one, once they build one and then another, they will take over the place. I have seen many of these around the country and they just turn it into homes and about 100 people will live in them and they do not look after them, its a free home to house lots of illegal immigrants If anyone starts a protest “”count me in””

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    LambdaTatter says… 
    11:33am Wed 22 Aug 12
    An argument…about religion…on the internet…what a rare treat.

    I for one believe that a mosque in Hereford should be of no concern to anyone other than the users of said mosque. There are many churches in the city and christianity, let’s be honest, hasn’t always been well behaved has it?

    For all those concerned with religious rhetoric echoing across the Hereford skyline trying to brainwash the members of this relatively peaceful town, bear this in mind: it has been a good century now since washing regularly became de rigeur and some in this town still don’t even do that, so the local Imam has his work cut out to get them to believe that they get 72 virgins for an act of martyrdom.

    Yours, an atheist.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    2:23pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    LambdaTatter wrote:
    An argument…about religion…on the internet…what a rare treat.

    I for one believe that a mosque in Hereford should be of no concern to anyone other than the users of said mosque. There are many churches in the city and christianity, let’s be honest, hasn’t always been well behaved has it?

    For all those concerned with religious rhetoric echoing across the Hereford skyline trying to brainwash the members of this relatively peaceful town, bear this in mind: it has been a good century now since washing regularly became de rigeur and some in this town still don’t even do that, so the local Imam has his work cut out to get them to believe that they get 72 virgins for an act of martyrdom.

    Yours, an atheist.
    Arguing about religion and politics is what the Internet was invented for. 🙂

    It’s the modern equivalent of the 18th Century Coffee House.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Heffalump22 says… 
    2:30pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Well here I was thinking we live in a democratic society. Some of the comments on here have amazed me. We are all allowed to have our thoughts, ideas, religion, gender. There are many religious buildings in this country as a whole why is it that as soon as a mosque is mentioned it brings out those who are bigots and I am not going to name, names but some ot the comments here align to that. I don’t hear complaints when the idea of a new Hall for the Jehovah Witnesses is mooted and that just as one example is not a christian religion. Yes there are areas where Mosque appear and the area surrounding them becomes specific but as the East End was mentioned over the years that place has been filled by French, Jews all sorts of people. Mostly living at peace. 

    I lived in a city in the UK where there was a mosque they welcomed all the local children and teachers with open arms to learn about their culture. They intergrated with the locals and yes the schools were mainly Muslim children who had english as a second language but they and their parents had a far more peaceful and welcoming approach than some here show. For the record I have no personal belief system but everyone is allowed their own. Yes let them raise their own money to build the Mosque it will if anywhere else I know indicates be an addition to the culture and interest of Hereford. After all if you don’t like it then you could always move out to a more “english” county.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    chill1986 says… 
    2:55pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    If it is the last English County how could I move to another one? English uses a capital letter. That comment didn’t come out very well, what I mean is Hereford doesn’t have areas that are specific. Which I believe is a good thing! 

    Further on from that Churches for the most part are old and Architecturally interesting structures. I would hope that if a Mosque is built it would follow this, but the majority I have seen are eyesores. I am not saying this is always the case and I hope this bucks the trend that I have seen.

    I am no bigot and I have many friends from a wide range of backgrounds. I don’t judge based on race, religion, gender etc. This is a conversation about our opinions on whether it would be a good idea to build a Mosque in Hereford. I dont think it would. It is only the narrow minded that believe it would produce terrorists, but I think that for those same people it will create a bulding to focus their views on. So it could be a bad thing for them as Hereford isn’t exactly the most multicultural City.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    poulry says… 
    7:47pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Interesting to hear those of a left wing persuasion to provide their ill judged comments in support of such a building.So to re- address the balance you can have the view of a Herefordian Christian whose ,white,middle class;patriotic and part of the “silent majority”. No doubt that’s got some of you ruffled already, but until middle England starts getting into a revolutionary mode and starts saying ‘no’to the continued erosion of our Country’s culture and constitution we’ll be left wondering around aimlessly in the future asking ‘how did we let this happen?”We could learn a lot from our ‘friends’across the border who refuse to see their history and traditions disappear. So no I wouldn’t agree to such a building, but there again if you had my way all primary school children would be made to learn at least two verses of our National Anthem and be able to recite the Lords Prayer. At this rate I”ll be joining the Welsh Nationalists who know how to put up a fight,(odd that when theEnglish try to do the same we are described as racist and imperialistic).Happy campaigning.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    7:50pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Heffalump22 wrote:
    Well here I was thinking we live in a democratic society. Some of the comments on here have amazed me. We are all allowed to have our thoughts, ideas, religion, gender. There are many religious buildings in this country as a whole why is it that as soon as a mosque is mentioned it brings out those who are bigots and I am not going to name, names but some ot the comments here align to that. I don’t hear complaints when the idea of a new Hall for the Jehovah Witnesses is mooted and that just as one example is not a christian religion. Yes there are areas where Mosque appear and the area surrounding them becomes specific but as the East End was mentioned over the years that place has been filled by French, Jews all sorts of people. Mostly living at peace. 

    I lived in a city in the UK where there was a mosque they welcomed all the local children and teachers with open arms to learn about their culture. They intergrated with the locals and

  2. Hereford times deleted comments part II

    Heffalump22 says… 
    2:30pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Well here I was thinking we live in a democratic society. Some of the comments on here have amazed me. We are all allowed to have our thoughts, ideas, religion, gender. There are many religious buildings in this country as a whole why is it that as soon as a mosque is mentioned it brings out those who are bigots and I am not going to name, names but some ot the comments here align to that. I don’t hear complaints when the idea of a new Hall for the Jehovah Witnesses is mooted and that just as one example is not a christian religion. Yes there are areas where Mosque appear and the area surrounding them becomes specific but as the East End was mentioned over the years that place has been filled by French, Jews all sorts of people. Mostly living at peace. 

    I lived in a city in the UK where there was a mosque they welcomed all the local children and teachers with open arms to learn about their culture. They intergrated with the locals and yes the schools were mainly Muslim children who had english as a second language but they and their parents had a far more peaceful and welcoming approach than some here show. For the record I have no personal belief system but everyone is allowed their own. Yes let them raise their own money to build the Mosque it will if anywhere else I know indicates be an addition to the culture and interest of Hereford. After all if you don’t like it then you could always move out to a more “english” county.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    chill1986 says… 
    2:55pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    If it is the last English County how could I move to another one? English uses a capital letter. That comment didn’t come out very well, what I mean is Hereford doesn’t have areas that are specific. Which I believe is a good thing! 

    Further on from that Churches for the most part are old and Architecturally interesting structures. I would hope that if a Mosque is built it would follow this, but the majority I have seen are eyesores. I am not saying this is always the case and I hope this bucks the trend that I have seen.

    I am no bigot and I have many friends from a wide range of backgrounds. I don’t judge based on race, religion, gender etc. This is a conversation about our opinions on whether it would be a good idea to build a Mosque in Hereford. I dont think it would. It is only the narrow minded that believe it would produce terrorists, but I think that for those same people it will create a bulding to focus their views on. So it could be a bad thing for them as Hereford isn’t exactly the most multicultural City.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    poulry says… 
    7:47pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Interesting to hear those of a left wing persuasion to provide their ill judged comments in support of such a building.So to re- address the balance you can have the view of a Herefordian Christian whose ,white,middle class;patriotic and part of the “silent majority”. No doubt that’s got some of you ruffled already, but until middle England starts getting into a revolutionary mode and starts saying ‘no’to the continued erosion of our Country’s culture and constitution we’ll be left wondering around aimlessly in the future asking ‘how did we let this happen?”We could learn a lot from our ‘friends’across the border who refuse to see their history and traditions disappear. So no I wouldn’t agree to such a building, but there again if you had my way all primary school children would be made to learn at least two verses of our National Anthem and be able to recite the Lords Prayer. At this rate I”ll be joining the Welsh Nationalists who know how to put up a fight,(odd that when theEnglish try to do the same we are described as racist and imperialistic).Happy campaigning.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    7:50pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Heffalump22 wrote:
    Well here I was thinking we live in a democratic society. Some of the comments on here have amazed me. We are all allowed to have our thoughts, ideas, religion, gender. There are many religious buildings in this country as a whole why is it that as soon as a mosque is mentioned it brings out those who are bigots and I am not going to name, names but some ot the comments here align to that. I don’t hear complaints when the idea of a new Hall for the Jehovah Witnesses is mooted and that just as one example is not a christian religion. Yes there are areas where Mosque appear and the area surrounding them becomes specific but as the East End was mentioned over the years that place has been filled by French, Jews all sorts of people. Mostly living at peace. 

    I lived in a city in the UK where there was a mosque they welcomed all the local children and teachers with open arms to learn about their culture. They intergrated with the locals and yes the schools were mainly Muslim children who had english as a second language but they and their parents had a far more peaceful and welcoming approach than some here show. For the record I have no personal belief system but everyone is allowed their own. Yes let them raise their own money to build the Mosque it will if anywhere else I know indicates be an addition to the culture and interest of Hereford. After all if you don’t like it then you could always move out to a more "english” county.
    I agree that we are all allowed to have our thoughts and also our spiritual beliefs. Part of the issue with people being worried about Mosques is what is being taught in them. What bits of the Qu’ran are being emphasied? Is it the nice bits such as ‘there shall be no compulsion in religion’ or the more darker bits such as ‘kill those who leave Islam’ (I think the right to change ones religion is a vital part of a free society)? How are they approaching the doctrine of abrogation? Are women being forced to dress in particular ways, or genitally mutilate their infant daughters or submit to forced marriages and male supremacy? There are lot of legitimate questions and worries there that need to be answered and addressed. There has also been a recent case where a liberal Imam was forced from his Mosque with threats because he believed in evolution and his belief in evolution was seen as an attack on Islam. 

    Although some mosques have taken steps to deal such extremism issues not enough have and there is still too high a proportion of Muslims who believe that the promotion of religion by the sword is acceptable (after all it is how Islam spread through the Arabian peninsular and the middle east in the first place). 

    On the subject of promotion of hatred, there have also been cases where the Tsarist anti-semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders Of Zion have been on sale in some mosque bookshops and this sort of thing bodes ill for issues of community relations. You wouldn’t find a major Church or Synagogue carrying books that promoted such base hatred against other groups but you can find them in some mosques.

    There are also far too many mosques that allow extremist preachers to foment hate against other groups and then deny that they have done so when caught out by the media or others. As has happened at the East London Mosque ( http://blogs.telegra
    ph.co.uk/news/andrew
    gilligan/100091835/e
    ast-london-mosque-un
    der-pressure-over-ha
    te-preachers/) 

    As Heffalump22 brought up the subject of East London I would like to say that it USED to be a mixed area but is now almost totally islamised and because of that the area is much more unsafe for members of other groups. 

    Of course mosques will welcome school groups Islam (like Christianity but unlike Judaism) is a proselytizing faith and there for have an interest in evangelising non believers. It’s good that you have found a mosque that encourages integration but there are many who do not and this has contributed to the growth of hostile Islamic ghettos in the UK which is not good for the residents of such ghettos nor the wider society. On the subject of school groups there was one really worrying incident where non muslim school pupil visitors to a mosque were encouraged to recite the Islamic declaration of faith, the shahadah. I don’t think any Church would encourage a non believing visitor to say the Lords Prayer nor a Synagogue encourage a similar visitor to recite the Shema in such circumstances. IIRC this recitation was without parental permission.

    You bring up the subject of why the outcry when it’s a mosque rather than a kingdom hall or another sort of religious building and that I’m afraid is related to the well documented Islamic propensity for violence and threats against non muslims and also muslims who do not conform or who are questioning of Islamic orthodoxy. Remember it is only 7 years ago that British Muslims, who were radicalised within the UK Islamic community killed 52 people on the London Underground. These bombers were not foreign agents from overseas they came from within the UK muslim community. It’s not a pleasant fact but it’s a fact all the same and is a factor in peoples minds when non muslims think about Islam. 

    The problem that many people have with Islam is that although there are many, many liberal minded moderate muslims but there does not appear to be any moderate Islam. This is mostly in my opinion because of the doctrine of Mohammed being the perfect man (I believe the Arabic is al-insan al-kamil) and that the Qu’ran is considered the ‘most perfect book’ makes it very difficult for those (both inside and outside Islam) who wish to see a Reformed Islam. Re interpretation of the Qu’ran to take into account later scholarship is mostly forbidden.

    Also, in the light of the massive amount of money that Saudi Arabia is pumping into Islamic evangelising it would be interesting to hear where the money is coming from for this proposed mosque? If there is Saudi money involved then this is bad news alround as the Saudi’s have a tendency to promote the most extremist types of Wahabi and Deobandi Islam. This is the type of Islam that is most culpable in promoting hatred of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Gays, Women and other groups.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    9:20pm Wed 22 Aug 12
    Refuge 77, How much more crap can you personally extract from existing published literature, post it to us and then challenge us to try and take it all in and make sense of it? Have you any ideas of your own which are original and helpful to the challenges of today or is that what you do? Use other authors work, twist it around to spread hatred and poison against a people who cant defend themselves I couldn’t care less that Moses had a Hare lip. You’ll be telling me soon that John the Baptist had a clubbed foot, suffered with Rickets and he was an enemy of King Herod’s building programme. Its rubbish and its tripe.This crap has no relevance. It seems to me that this is all you do. Take someone elses work, make it fit your warped view of Islam, post it out in the hope that you come across as a ‘clever cloggs’, frighten people and give them the idea that building a Mosque,( bricks and mortar) is going to bring about their downfall.
    Its madness and it’s time you stopped quoting obtuse and abstract medieval documents and communicated in a language that has some basis of common sense and relevance to the ‘now’.
    The logical conclusion to your argument and view is that Islam is evil, its a threat to all of us and we should fight to our deaths to stop another mosque being built. In other words, despite you repeatedly saying, ‘ I’m not a bigot but….’ That is exactly what you are.
    I’ll end this personal insult by making a final reference to you ‘having to flee’ your old home because of the chasing Islamic people. I of course wasn’t there, but now, having exchanged words with you and read your hate fuelled words, I can honestly say that they were more than right to chase you out of Town. Had I been your neighbour I would have joined them.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    swampy says… 
    12:17am Thu 23 Aug 12
    A member of my family was attacked and had terrible injuries inflicted on her for not accepting a muslims sexual advances on her. While in the hospital, the Police were called, and the man in question ended up in prison for less than 6 months, during which this lady had physical threats made to her by the family and had to undergo Police protection at great expense to the tax paying public. I for one do not want a mosque in Hereford.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    4:37am Thu 23 Aug 12
    bobby47 wrote:
    Refuge 77, How much more crap can you personally extract from existing published literature, post it to us and then challenge us to try and take it all in and make sense of it? Have you any ideas of your own which are original and helpful to the challenges of today or is that what you do? Use other authors work, twist it around to spread hatred and poison against a people who cant defend themselves I couldn’t care less that Moses had a Hare lip. You’ll be telling me soon that John the Baptist had a clubbed foot, suffered with Rickets and he was an enemy of King Herod’s building programme. Its rubbish and its tripe.This crap has no relevance. It seems to me that this is all you do. Take someone elses work, make it fit your warped view of Islam, post it out in the hope that you come across as a ‘clever cloggs’, frighten people and give them the idea that building a Mosque,( bricks and mortar) is going to bring about their downfall.
    Its madness and it’s time you stopped quoting obtuse and abstract medieval documents and communicated in a language that has some basis of common sense and relevance to the ‘now’.
    The logical conclusion to your argument and view is that Islam is evil, its a threat to all of us and we should fight to our deaths to stop another mosque being built. In other words, despite you repeatedly saying, ‘ I’m not a bigot but….’ That is exactly what you are.
    I’ll end this personal insult by making a final reference to you ‘having to flee’ your old home because of the chasing Islamic people. I of course wasn’t there, but now, having exchanged words with you and read your hate fuelled words, I can honestly say that they were more than right to chase you out of Town. Had I been your neighbour I would have joined them.
    Bobby47 why don’t you cease being angry and address my points? I’ve provided sources and quotes where possible to back up my point of view.

    I brought up the subject of the imperfections of Moses and other religious leaders to show that unlike Islam other religions (with the possible exception of the of Jesus in the New Testament but then Christians consider him not entirely human which is a different issue) accept that their great leaders were less than perfect and how the doctrine of Mohammed being the perfect man is an obstacle to reform in Islam. I think that is a pretty reasonable thing to say and is not ‘spreading hatred’

    To be frank I and many others are worried about Islam as a philosophy and especially as a political movement because of what some of its adherents have done even though I have no issue at all with individual muslims. After it hasn’t been Quakers who flew airliners into skyscrapers, or bombed London tube trains and buses, or shoot schoolkids in the back as in Beslan is it?

    Because of the nature of Islam it is right that hard questions are asked.

    What you call ‘obtuse medieval documents’ more reasonable people call primary information sources.

    The fact that you are now resorting to personal attacks tells me that you may be unable to answer any of my points.

    If I’m taking flak from you then I must be right over the target.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    4:48am Thu 23 Aug 12
    refuge77 wrote:
    bobby47 wrote:
    Refuge 77, How much more crap can you personally extract from existing published literature, post it to us and then challenge us to try and take it all in and make sense of it? Have you any ideas of your own which are original and helpful to the challenges of today or is that what you do? Use other authors work, twist it around to spread hatred and poison against a people who cant defend themselves I couldn’t care less that Moses had a Hare lip. You’ll be telling me soon that John the Baptist had a clubbed foot, suffered with Rickets and he was an enemy of King Herod’s building programme. Its rubbish and its tripe.This crap has no relevance. It seems to me that this is all you do. Take someone elses work, make it fit your warped view of Islam, post it out in the hope that you come across as a ‘clever cloggs’, frighten people and give them the idea that building a Mosque,( bricks and mortar) is going to bring about their downfall.
    Its madness and it’s time you stopped quoting obtuse and abstract medieval documents and communicated in a language that has some basis of common sense and relevance to the ‘now’.
    The logical conclusion to your argument and view is that Islam is evil, its a threat to all of us and we should fight to our deaths to stop another mosque being built. In other words, despite you repeatedly saying, ‘ I’m not a bigot but….’ That is exactly what you are.
    I’ll end this personal insult by making a final reference to you ‘having to flee’ your old home because of the chasing Islamic people. I of course wasn’t there, but now, having exchanged words with you and read your hate fuelled words, I can honestly say that they were more than right to chase you out of Town. Had I been your neighbour I would have joined them.
    Bobby47 why don’t you cease being angry and address my points? I’ve provided sources and quotes where possible to back up my point of view.

    I brought up the subject of the imperfections of Moses and other religious leaders to show that unlike Islam other religions (with the possible exception of the of Jesus in the New Testament but then Christians consider him not entirely human which is a different issue) accept that their great leaders were less than perfect and how the doctrine of Mohammed being the perfect man is an obstacle to reform in Islam. I think that is a pretty reasonable thing to say and is not ‘spreading hatred’

    To be frank I and many others are worried about Islam as a philosophy and especially as a political movement because of what some of its adherents have done even though I have no issue at all with individual muslims. After it hasn’t been Quakers who flew airliners into skyscrapers, or bombed London tube trains and buses, or shoot schoolkids in the back as in Beslan is it?

    Because of the nature of Islam it is right that hard questions are asked.

    What you call ‘obtuse medieval documents’ more reasonable people call primary information sources.

    The fact that you are now resorting to personal attacks tells me that you may be unable to answer any of my points.

    If I’m taking flak from you then I must be right over the target.
    Bobby47 you seem to be very supportive of the plan for a Hereford mosque would you or anyone connected with this project who you may know tell me and others a) where the money is coming from and b) how a few months ago there seemed to be £28,000 in the Hereford mosque fund but now there appears to be (according to today’s local paper) £40,000. I’ve done community fundraising and I know that twelve grand in a few months is a lot to raise from and by a small community unless there is outside help in the form of grants etc. Is this money coming from Saudi either directly or via a third party? 

    If I’m wrong on my figures I’m quite willing to stand corrected.

    To add to my previous post. Individual muslims are NOT evil I never said they were but there are worrying aspects to Islamic theology and practice and politics which need to be debated in the open. Debating such issues in the open is the best way to avoid the far right making up and spreading stories about Islam.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    refuge77 says… 
    6:40am Thu 23 Aug 12
    Having just seen the front page of this weeks Hereford Times I would like to reiterate my previous comments that it is completely wrong to attack people on the grounds of race because basically we’re all the same colour underneath, and a person cannot change their race anymore than a man can miraculously grow a womb – the character Shylock in Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice stated this better than I could when he said ‘if you **** us do we not bleed’ – (although Islam is not a race as there are black muslims, oriental muslims,white muslims etc) but it is in my view perfectly acceptable to take issue with the more negative aspects of Islamic philosophy and theology which I have done. 

    I disagree with those who threaten to contaminate any land chosen for a mosques as apart from being criminal that just makes those opposed to the proposed mosque no better than the Islamic nutters who paraded in London a while back who carried banners saying ‘behead those who insult Islam’ or the Islamist Sudanese Govt who imprisoned a visiting British teacher for allowing a child in her class to name their teddy bear Mohammed.

    If the building of a mosque in Hereford is to be protested it must be protested peacefully and with provable facts.

    I’d like to say to the Hereford Times thank you for quoting me accurately in the newspaper as it’s good to see journalistic standards being upheld.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    8:07am Thu 23 Aug 12
    Refuge 77, For the record, the building of the Mosque is something I couldn’t care less about. Build it or dont build it, its of no concern to me. What does concern me is people and their right to live and worship as they want. And for me, I simply see this as a ‘given’ freedom and therefore, if Muslim’s want a Mosque then I’d be happy for it to have it’s foundations planted near to my backyard. I aint concerned.
    Freedom of Speech, which is something you are excersing, comes with responsibility and I dont believe you are using your academic ability responsibly. I dread to think what Muslim people will think of ‘us’ when they read our debate and particularly your brilliantly put together postings which I personally think are hurtful to Muslim people.
    Having said all that, I was very wrong to ‘insult’ you and for that I appologise. Mind you, I’d still help the posse chase you out of Town.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    leftofmoorfarm says… 
    8:26am Thu 23 Aug 12
    The ignorance and bigotry in some of these comments is astounding. It’s embarrassing. Sometimes I’m ashamed to be from Hereford. 
    I’m now awaiting the inevitable “move out then” comment, believe me I may just have to do that. This place I was born in and love is too full of ignorence and intollerence now for me to live here comfortably.
    I hope the Mosque is built, and I hope the ignorant are proved wrong. I doubt some will ever learn though. Good luck with it.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    nodhimmi says… 
    12:01pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    For those of you who clearly ‘get it’ about islam that despite what you are told and in some cases may see islam is not a religion of peace. That does not mean that many muslims are not peaceful and do not wish for, or adhere to, sharia law. However there have been over 19,000 terrorist attacks worldwide perpetrated by ‘the religion of peace’ since 9/11. Muslims do not wish to integrate they wish to dominate. This is just a numbers game, their aim is worldwide domination and submission to islam (islam actually means submission). For the sake of the peace and safety of your neighbourhood , to help to prevent the spread of islam into every town, city and road in this Country Oppose this mosque. May I suggest to those of you who are opposed to this mosque that you contact the Law and Freedom Foundation. You will receive free expert advice to help you start a campaign and fight the planning application. The Foundation has been very successful to date. http://lawandfreedom
    foundation.org/ If you think I am a ‘bigot’ may I suggest respectfully that you do some research of your own into the bloody and violent history of islam and the crime, rape, rioting, gang violence and drug dealing activities of muslims in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and France to mention a few European countries right now. The subjugation of women (including FGM)) the murder of Christians, Buddhists and Jews, the hanging of gays and the stoning of women (to death) for adultery not to mention death for apostacy (leaving islam) the cutting off of hands for stealing are all part of islamic jurisprudence since the 7th/8th century and is what the group ‘sharia4uk’ want for us all. The loss of your freedom, your freedom of speech, your freedom to worship in peace (or not), to marry whom you chose and to ‘own yourself’ in fact your Culture is at stake. Even dogs are not safe they are considered unclean especially black dogs. In Saudi Arabia it is now illegal to own a dog as a pet only for security or hunting. The rest are currently being shot.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    fmrbill says… 
    12:59pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    bobby47 perhaps your neigbours might have something to say my friend about the foundations close to your backyard ??? )))) ( JOKE )trying to put some humour into this debate DIFFICULT I KNOW

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    nodhimmi says… 
    1:05pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    oops correction to my earlier 
    post ‘For those of you who clearly don’t ‘get it’ about islam’…..

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    1:29pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    fmrbill, Hello mate. I thought you’d disappeared after our mauling over the CSO’s. Dont worry kiddo, you can try with some humour. I’ll allways get it but I suspect this subject has gone way past that. Aint it ‘heavy’ going. My warmest regards to you.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    fmrbill says… 
    2:18pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    bobby47 must get back to getting some corn in weather allowing ))))

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Interested Onlooker says… 
    3:42pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    So much suspicion, so much distrust, so much quoting from old texts to justify driving people out of town like a witch-hunt…. so much for organised religion.

    Fundamentalist Islamists, evangelical Christians, homophobic Catholics, creepy Scientologists – they’re all the same to me.

    You can be a decent person without believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden or bearded men sitting on clouds.

    I have no religious belief whatsoever but I go to work each day, pay my taxes, try not to disturb my neighbours by having the TV too loud and to my sure and certain knowledge I’ve never robbed or murdered anyone. I don’t even have any points on my driving licence. Not because a priest, rabbi or imam told me how to behave, but because I was brought up decently.

    Alright, build your mosque, open your synagogue, carry on going to the cathedral, extend your Friends Meeting House – just keep it all to yourselves and don’t foist your religion on others or expect people to go along with it. In return, I’ll mind my own business to. Then we’ll all get along fine.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Jockie says… 
    4:23pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Interested Onlooker is spot on. Why are we allowing an organisation that decries the use of contraception for instance, predominantly in AID’s riddled Africa the right to worship? The Catholic Church must be evil. As for Terrorism, who are the IRA? Under which banner did they maim and kill? Islam treats women as second class citizens? Like not allowing them to be Priests for instance? The above posts are Islamaphobia pure and simple. The EDL/BNP propoganda being spouted on here is embarressing to normal balanced minded people. ALL religious fundamentalist are exactly that, mentalists. Just out of interest, was Mo Farah planting IED’s around the track at the Olympic park the other week? Or were 85 thousand people in the stadium and millions at home cheering this Black, Muslim Immigrant home with all their might. The Olympics were the true face of Multicultural Britain, a place to be very proud of. Hatred, insular thinking and protectionism have no place in our society whatever colour or creed you are.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    chill1986 says… 
    4:50pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    The Catholic Church now allows contraception.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Jockie says… 
    5:07pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Mainly when its Priests are having sex with choristers

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    5:17pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Jockie, Well said you kiddo. Your posting has won the day. Well done.
    My regards to you.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    HerefordMuslimSociety says… 
    9:36pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Herefordshire Muslim Society – Press Statement regarding recent media interest in the community.

    Over the past few days, there has been increased media interest in the Herefordshire Muslim Community, with a particular focus on ‘plans to build a mosque’. This press statement is being issued to provide some context and background and to address some of the questions the media have been asking.

    Context and Background:
    There have been Muslims residing in Herefordshire for many decades. Though they are diverse they are very small in number compared with many other areas of the UK. The 2001 census recorded the Muslim population of Herefordshire as 174 (or 0.1% of the population).

    For the past few years the community has been meeting each week, using rented premises to hold community talks, gatherings and prayers. Two years ago the community discussed the idea of establishing their own centre, which would not only be more cost-effective than renting in the long-term, but would allow greater flexibility with regards to meeting times and activities and would also serve as a base for the growing community. With this in mind a formal association was established to ensure proper governance and a fund-raising appeal was launched. The association is currently going through the process of registering with the Charities Commission.

    Our Vision
    We are striving towards establishing a community centre which will:
    • Act as a centre allowing a place for the community to meet, hold congregational prayers and providing an environment for spiritual purification and inner strength.
    • Serve as a centre for Islamic educational activities.
    • Play a central role in the cultural and social life of residents of Herefordshire.

    Progress to date:
    The fund raising appeal has raised circa £40k to date, mostly through donations from the local community. We are aiming to raise enough funds to be able to purchase a suitable building to establish as our community centre, albeit, the efforts thus far have been on raising the funds rather than identifying a suitable property or location. The project is long-term one and therefore it will take some time (possibly years) before the community finds something to meet its current and future needs. We have never intended, neither do we currently have, any imminent plans to ‘build a mosque’, (as has been suggested by some media outlets).

    Participation in the community:
    In keeping with our vision, members of the local Muslim Community have been working with local schools, colleges and other faith-based organisations to raise awareness of Islam and Muslims and provide an open opportunity for dialogue, understanding and mutual respect.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    10:31pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Hereford Muslim Society, On behalf of some of our number, namely the sane, the open minded and those with kind hearts, thank you for your posting. We wish you well and good luck in your future aim to build your own place of worship.
    As for the others, those that shame our City and themselves, forgive and ignore them for they are simple folk who need to be angry with somebody or something and alas, have limited space in their brains for progress and social development. You know the sort I mean,….they exist in all cultures,… morons and plant life. Yeah..Idiots.
    Good luck for the future.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Bilynda96 says… 
    11:35pm Thu 23 Aug 12
    Oh dear!! Not good!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    LulaDeSilva says… 
    12:06am Fri 24 Aug 12
    There is a lot of ignorance dressed up as expert opinion on Islam, Muslims, religion etc.
    Most of it is peddled by those affiliated with unsavoury groups like the EDL. They repeat their pseudo-intellectual puffery ad nauseum.
    After a brief perusal of the comments above I will highlight only one inconsistency from the random musings of refuge77. It appears he or she or it (who knows if it is not mere algo written incoherence from SkyNet) has no issue with a Hindu temple for instance or a Sikh institution. Not in anyway maligning members of those two religions but they too have their fair share of “terrorists, lunatics, zealots”…
    One need only look at the antics of groups behind anti Christian and anti Muslim pogroms in India to realise this.
    http://www.asianews.
    it/news-en/Hindu-rad
    icals-threaten-more-
    anti-Christian-pogro
    ms-in-Karnataka-2245
    5.html

    The point is no group has a monopoly on idiots. 

    To pick on a group of Muslims is bigoted – pure and simple. Should all churches on Norwegian territory be closed down because of Brevik (of course he is not a terrorist because only brown men can be terrorists)?

    One final point I feel I must make to address the narrow minds of the bigots. Culture is not static. Culture evolves. Those who think otherwise have a brain that cannot remember beyond what they consumed for lunch or dinner. 

    With respect to the Mosque itself – I hope it is built in a way that is sympathetic to the architecture of the county. I would not recommend a building that stands out like a sore thumb.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Bilynda96 says… 
    12:26am Fri 24 Aug 12
    A Mosque would of course stick out like a sore thumb!! Just like a Church would in many Far Eastern countries! And would be as welcome here as a Church is not there!! Well to a lot of people anyway! Me being one of them! Call me what you like..bigot, moron, plant life, idiot, I will respond to all but does not mean I have to agree with the building of a Mosque!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    LulaDeSilva says… 
    1:13am Fri 24 Aug 12
    I suppose we should have banned the building of paved roads and bridges… Look where that got us…. 
    All these unfamiliar alien people from Worcestershire and beyond started to visit Hereford… 

    They brought along with them their alien customs and Black Pears, poisoning our idyllic bucolic lifestyle…

    Some of them even corrupted our youth with ideas of a world beyond the Vale of Evesham…

    Eventually they usurped our county into an ugly chimera of “Hereford & Worcester”… Having only recently secured our independence I can see why we would be on our wits when it comes to pesky outsiders… Especially brown ones…

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Amzy93 says… 
    1:16am Fri 24 Aug 12
    No one needs to worry because the Hereford Muslim Society stated in their comment that they won’t actually be building a mosque!
    It’s a shame as I think a lot of people on here need to realise mosques aren’t grotesque buildings. 
    And that also ofcourse there are churches in the middle east! Christianity tries to take over everywhere!
    A mosque here would show a promising future of multi culturalism in this county and I look forward to the day that all the bigots on here hang their heads in shame when they realise Muslims aren’t doing anything wrong in Hereford. They just want a place to worship. All of this hatred toward them because they want a place to worship is disgusting. Christians can build as many churches here as they like but we won’t give up a building so the Muslims have a place to go? So wrong.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Bilynda96 says… 
    1:33am Fri 24 Aug 12
    Sorry I disagree Amzy93, Islam tries to take over everywhere! And will wipe everything out in its path given half the chance! Can you tell me where the Churches are in Saudi Arabia? I would be interested to know just how many christian churches there are in Muslim countries? I do not mind being corrected if I am wrong! Yes I agree to that a Mosque is not a grotesque building to look at, some are very beautiful! In the right place! Hereford is not the right place!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Amzy93 says… 
    9:13am Fri 24 Aug 12
    Ok. So you complain about the way the Middle East is with regards to othe religions yet you’d like this country to do the same? I would agree that the number of muslims in this country has increased but they don’t want to “wipe everything out”! As I have previously stated, Islam is a peaceful religion but there are extremists just like there are in any other religion. The muslims here that want a somewhere to worship are already here, if they haven’t taken over yet, why do you think they still will? They’re not flocking here because of a mosque, the Muslims that have been living among us for a long time just want the right to a place to worship just as everyone else is allowed. An unused building somewhere is what they want. Not to have a mosque and take over Hereford.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bikerbill says… 
    10:14am Fri 24 Aug 12
    i expect our council will soon give a large grant for this,why can they not put us herefordians first as we elected them too,they have filled this city with immigrants to get money from central goverment.If they want a mosque go some where else

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    LulaDeSilva says… 
    11:24am Fri 24 Aug 12
    For the benefit of Bilynda:
    Churches are seeing phenomenal growth in Indonesia: Pastor Billy Njotorahardjo has seen tremendous growth in his church. He said his congregation has increased from 400 to more than 6,000 members in just four years.

    You can wiki (however unreliable) a list of Churches in allegedly the most intolerant Muslim country on the planet (Pakistan):
    http://en.wikipedia.
    org/wiki/List_of_chu
    rches_in_Pakistan

    As I said before this is all about hatred. If there was no such thing as Islam, the idiots would have found something else with which to fight each other. Those of us complaining of a mosque would have found something else to complain about. 

    Welcome to the human condition…

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Jockie says… 
    12:01pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    “Why cant they put us Herefordians first” The Muslim community that live in Hereford and have done for decades ARE Herefordian. Or do you need to be White to be Herefordian? As for Immigrants in the county, you mean the ones that work at the likes of Sun Valley, on farms, fruit picking etc, doing the work moaning indiginous population refuse to because they deem it beneath them. The problem with White Middle England is that they think the world owes them a living, that rule Brittania still exists and that they are better and more deserving than anyone else. The World War is over, as are the Crusades, as is the Empire. Our centuries of oppression and killing in places like India, Africa and the far east are thankfully over, we are paying the price for this oppression due the rise of extremism in countries we previously ruled and left to rot. As this county should know better than anyone. You reap what you sow. By the way. I am white, born and bred in Hereford, work and live here now.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    12:32pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    Refuge77, Where are you? Have you fled Town? Say it aint so. Have those terrible Muslims chased you again? Come back to us and let me disagree with you once more. I miss you. Without you I’m done for.
    Is it that you’ve run out of books and have no more obscure passages to quote me. Forget the books and simply rely upon original thought and new ideas. You can do it. Granted, in your case its going to be a challenge but give it a go kiddo.
    You can tell me more about this unfortunate Hare Lip that dear sweet old Moses had. I want to learn. Was it with the old guy from birth or did he develop it when he clambered down the mountain with the tablets of stone.Was it a punishment from God because it was actually Moses who dropped his fag upon the lovely bush and set it alight and thus became the first arsonist mentioned in the bible.
    Tell me you’ve not gone quiet because of the front page headline of the Hereford Times.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    kevvywebby says… 
    1:07pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    Build it on the Racecourse…..there
    ‘s plenty of room on there…with wonderful views of Hereford….We can then all see this lovely structure…..

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    nodhimmi says… 
    1:25pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    http://barenakedisla
    m.com/2012/08/05/dea
    th-of-a-nation-a-cul
    ture-a-people-nothin
    g-about-east-london-
    is-very-british-anym
    ore/ ‘27% of the population of East London is classified as ‘White British’ soon there will be none’. Don’t think that what has happened in Dewsbury, Tower Hamlets and Bradford could not happen to you in Hereford. Don’t take my word for it check out what happens when a mosque opens; more and more muslims come. Then before you know it they need another mosque. In a generation or two you could be like Desbury with 50 mosques and 6 more in the pipline. Don’t call me a ‘racist’ islam is not a race it is a lifestlye – a totalitarian ideology. Why not read Danny Lockwood’s ‘The Islamic republic of Dewsbury’ Mr Lockwood is a local journalist who was born in Dewsbury and still works there but doesn’t live there. He gives an objective (not hostile) view of what has happened in his town. Get informed about islam don’t fear the ‘thought police’ Muslims do not integrate and when the numbers are large enough the demands for sharia law will grow In places like Tower Hamlets almost every sign of our Culture has been eradicated. You can walk the whole length of any market there and never hear English spoken. I see there is much written about the evils of other religions which is actually missing the point and is a distraction. ‘Comparing islam to other religions is like comparing a common cold to a flesh eating virus’ as Eric Allen Bell says!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Jockie says… 
    2:11pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    Hmmm. Eric Allen Bell. Widely respected Islamaphobe lunatic. 

    http://www.loonwatch
    .com/2012/01/eric-al
    len-bell-chooses-to-
    retain-ridiculous-pr
    ejudice/

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    fmrbill says… 
    4:15pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    blimey this still going on ))) thank goodness rain is holding off so can get the harvert in, will discuss this with my parson on sunday after church !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    fmrbill says… 
    4:23pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    or as the vicar would say PRAISE THE LORD and give thanks

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    Colliegirl says… 
    4:25pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    No No No No No! What is this country coming to when even Hereford is becoming a non British society!
    What happened to being proud of our heritage and wanting it to stay as it is!

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    bobby47 says… 
    5:36pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    My friend fmrbill has raised a very good point here readers and we’d be fools to ignore it and lets face it, we’ve got plenty of fools here that are capable of ignoring it.
    The Crop has to be harvested. It’ll do no good whatsoever if the crop is left out there and what we really dont want, which is the point fmrbill is making is, we dont want anymore rain.
    If we get rain then I think it only right, fair and proper for us all to blame the Muslims and the planned building of this Mosque.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    ZornAp45 says… 
    8:29pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    bobby47 wrote:
    Refuge77, Where are you? Have you fled Town? Say it aint so. Have those terrible Muslims chased you again? Come back to us and let me disagree with you once more. I miss you. Without you I’m done for.
    Is it that you’ve run out of books and have no more obscure passages to quote me. Forget the books and simply rely upon original thought and new ideas. You can do it. Granted, in your case its going to be a challenge but give it a go kiddo.
    You can tell me more about this unfortunate Hare Lip that dear sweet old Moses had. I want to learn. Was it with the old guy from birth or did he develop it when he clambered down the mountain with the tablets of stone.Was it a punishment from God because it was actually Moses who dropped his fag upon the lovely bush and set it alight and thus became the first arsonist mentioned in the bible.
    Tell me you’ve not gone quiet because of the front page headline of the Hereford Times.
    Hi I was refuge77 but I have a new handle. I’m back but I do have a life away from the screen and I also have had a computer problem hence the new moniker. The computer problem wasn’t caused by divine will, it was more mundane than that. Oh and not all Muslims scare me or others, there is more than one path within Islam. I was amis in one thing I should have said I don’t include the Sufi’s amongst the more troubling kinds. 

    I’ve been re reading the thread and I noticed that no matter what question I ask, theological or whatever, there is never an answer.

    You have flattered, you have joked, you have moaned but you have never answered one of my questions straightly. 

    When I asked about the problems that we in the west have with the concept of Mohammed, perfectly legitimate questions as we in the West mostly have a different man in mind when we think of ‘perfect’ . I asked how we will over come this difference and you didn’t answer, twice.

    I asked why it was impossible to change religion from Islam in Islamic countries, and you didn’t answer.

    And when I asked you about the issue of Islamic violence, you still didn’t answer.

    Now doesn’t that tell you something, more later.

    Also when I commented in general about the mosque finances none of the supporters of the mosque answered. The issue of Saudi money is a legitmate question after all. They pump millions into Dawa (evangelism) works and many of the publications are dubious in content and grossly slanderous abusive to other religions, non muslims, women, democracy and much more. That sort of destabilising propaganda effort IS definitely worth knowing.

    One the subject of the Hereford Mosque/Masjid whatever I saw recently that someone associated with or acting in the name of the mosque has been trolling for funds in a lovely site called Islamic Awakening. On there you will find a steady diet of Britain and America bashing, general hatred and even a Forum to discuss Politics and Jihad. Some lovely friends you seem to have there.

    Because you have not answered my questions and have just evaded I have to conclude that this may well be just another piece of Taqyyia, the act of lying or otherwise dissembling in order to promote Islam. In a way I hoped I would be wrong.

    A Christian would have answered honest awkward questions, so would a Jew and a Hindu and a Sikh and also the believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but you don’t.

    Care to answer.

    One a much lighter note: An Islamic hatefest got cancelled in York. Well done to all those who protested. Agressive Islamism can be fought back.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    ZornAp45 says… 
    8:45pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    I forgot to add that even when I quote from the Qu’ran you do not answer. If I had had the same convo with any other religions fan or rep or even someone with a passing interest I would have expected some sort of scriptural comeback or quote but you didn’t. 

    That’s odd as I’ve seen it in Jews and Christians mostly but of all the representatives of the People of the Book I’ve met you are one of the few that has not quoted their scripture to me in answer to a question. May I ask a question are you a convert to Islam?

    The reason I ask is that people may not be aware that unlike the other monothiesitic faiths Islam takes converts with very little training when compared with Christianity or Judaism. This is why Islam spreads so well in prisons in the UK, the entrance fee is just a few words of profession of faith in one god and with mohammed as gods final messenger. The entry cost is so low compared to Christianity and Judaism and some religions such as Sikhism and Samaritianism are almost impossible to get into. However, as too many people have found out the cost of exiting Islam or in the ideal Islamic world even having a different religion (did you know that Christians and Jews in Muslim law have to pay a tax just or being Christian or Jewish) comes at a very high cost.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    ZornAp45 says… 
    8:59pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    Resources you may be interested in. Non racist places concerned about Islamism and it’s tactics.

    http://hurryupharry.
    org/

    Blog about the Islamic Far right

    http://theislamicfar
    rightinbritain.wordp
    ress.com/

    If you want to see the Islamic site that I mentioned earlier it’s at: 

    http://forums.islami
    cawakening.com/forum
    .php

    I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for the pro mosque posters to answer my questions although the flattery is appreciated at the end of a hard day, maybe you should do it for a living.

    QUOTE » | REPORT THIS POST »
    ZornAp45 says… 
    9:06pm Fri 24 Aug 12
    bobby47. Even though I have not had a civil answer from you to questions I shall however answer one of yours. Yes I have seen the Hereford Times headline I was even quoted in the article under the other moniker. 

    I saw the article and have already commented on it in the post of 6:40am Thu 23 Aug 12. In it I condemned the violence and urged peaceful protest and checkable facts about Islam because to me this is not looking like a lottery winner of an idea if the mosques fan club on here are anything to go by.

  3. XX A bigot.
    You use terms such as,’Mosques are forward command posts on a battlefield’. XX

    Aha. Well for whoever the prick was who took objection at the description, that is EXACTLY how Erdogan (Turkish President…or is it Prime minister? One of the two) describes them.

    Not bad for the leader of a supossedly “secular” state, I thought.

  4. Hi FT, Yup I believe that this poster shouting bigot was slapped down by the same fact as you’ve stated.

  5. As I understand it, a mosque cannot be built on ground which has been defiled. Apparently, all it would take is for someone, not known to you and not acting your behalf, to bury the head of a pig on the ground earmarked for the mosque and then, when it’s found, have an Imam declare that ground defiled in the eyes of the Islamic community. Not that you would have had any prior knowledge of this occurrence, of course.

    • The problem with irrational beliefs is that a reason would be found for the ground to be judged NOT defiled. Trust me on this one, religions with complex laws sometimes also have complex get out clauses.

      Besides that someone got nicked down the road in Gloucester for doing similar.

      No I think the way to beat this is to use legal tools, peaceful demonstrations and publicity and our votes to go after those who are cheerleading for this stuff and the councillors that support it.

      BTW it seems from my research in to the average wages of diversity officers that our current Diversity Officer here in Hereford is probably on a wage approx £10K more than the average wage in the county, all for talking shit.

      • While legal moves are to be appreciated and preferred, it may sometimes be appropriate to use the same methods as the ‘opposition’ (not that I am suggesting an Islamic community as the opposition). A community in the Midlands apparently gathered together and submitted proposals for a lap-dancing club, a ‘bacon-butty’ breakfast bar, and an Anne Summers style clothing shop in the same area as a proposed mosque. I am told a decision has yet to be made with a mixed set of views from the local authority – though that’s what they receive their epenses for – the outcome is awaited with baited breath by the local voters!

        • LOL ! Nice one. It reminds me of how some Israeli seculars have fought the Ultra Othrodox Jewish religoius loons in Israel. When the extremists riot the seculars throw porn mags at the religious rioters and it’s like kryptonite, they run away.

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